@ GreenDestiny RE: Dragonlord Program

[DeadlyPenguin9000]

If I somehow overstep an NDA on an accident (which I don't think I'm going to do) please, inform me so that I can edit the post or delete it. That being said.

I was brought into the Dragon Lord Program when it was under the care of Brian Bates. Regardless of anyone's opinion on him or how he does things, he worked to make that program something special when the game was under AEG's reign. You could easily look up who was a DL, where they were located, and contact AEG for a request to have those DL's come to your store for an event.

So where does the Dragon Lord program stand now? Who is the head of it? Is it still Alexander and if it is why? I've seen him post in our DL boards maybe once or twice in the last year. Do we even know if he still plays? Hell, do we even know who is still an active runner? I know of Rich, Don, Gene, Matt, Tony, and myself (I apologize if I missed one) are still active.

Arne and yourself have both said that there are big things that are going to happen to the game this year, so do you have plans for rebooting this dead program? This was what kept warlord on its feet as long as it has been. It was the fantastic people that would travel the distance to give 6 people an event and a good time, and there probably aren't more then ten of us left in the US. Everyone that has played this game will never forget their first challenge against a DL, and that is something I feel, is a big reason why future plans need to focus on getting things off the ground once again.

Communication from any sort of big cheese is really zilch, aside for Rich Carter, in the DL boards. I brought up the issue of recruitment, with players I feel would be a great addition, and it got overlooked an never really discussed, amongst plenty of other topics that go unaddressed within those boards. So my question to you or Arne (if he would so grace us) is this;

What our your plans for this year involving the DL program?
Two new Overlord's were mentioned, how are we going to reveal them? I don't think it would be wise to wait until GenCon.
Do we plan on ever bringing in new blood or trimming any dead weight?

This is posted here because someone will actually see it. The DL forums have been dead for quite some time. If you or Arne would be comfortable speaking in those forums, I'd be more then happy to move the topic over to cardmasters.

[daurgo2001]

I don't know anything, but I'm pretty sure at least one of the OL's will be released shortly after SoO.

I do hope the program solidifies itself again.
- David

[Dutchess]

I don't know anything, but I'm pretty sure at least one of the OL's will be released shortly after SoO.

I do hope the program solidifies itself again.
- David

Absolutly! The tiered challenge system is one of the things that got me started into Warlord way back when. I hope that they bring it into a greater light, and re-establish its significance. Something fresh for the game like an OL or DL might be refreshing.

[bonefish]

Altered subject slightly for clarity.

Red text off...time to add my 2 cents!

As one of the original DL runners I experienced all the high and low points of the program from its inception up until PI took over the game (and by extension the DL program.) While I'm not privy to what has happened to the program under PI's reign (although it sounds like I haven't missed much.) I can say that, at least at the outset, I liked where PI was headed with the program.

(Wait, what? Did I just offer something close to a compliment to PI? Why yes...and its not the first time.)

Before there was a DL program their appearances were just about as scarce as Medusan Lords. They were generally only at the major cons and were run as often as you could get one of the AEG staff to run one for you. (in other words if you were patient and waited your turn you were SoL, but if you sniveled and whined alot you'd get your way.)

Enter the Dragonlord program where events would be run in stores (and smaller cons) but, in order to preserve the integrity of the program it was required that all DL events be scheduled 90 days in advance with a lot of promotion leading up to the event. Eventually these restrictions were lessened (and eventually removed entirely), which let to Dragonlords becoming fairly common...even more common than some Overlords.

I think PI wanted to return some integrity and value back to the Dragonlord Program and to the Dragonlord cards themselves. I was excited by the Daemonlord (as I had often pushed for factionalized Dragonlord-esque characters); but was fairly disappointed in the return of Aldrich. (way too many people already have him...its just not special to win an Aldrich.)

I think the Dragonlord Program has stumbled for a lot of the same reasons that alot of things have stumbled. Lack of a decent sized player base, lack of a presence in retail stores, lack of resources to print & distribute new Lords, lack of motivation/trust to appoint someone to spearhead the program.

I haven't seen GD's to do list, but I would assume the Dragonlord program is at least somewhere in the top 5. I hope when the program is retooled it is able to strike a happy medium....with the challenges being held often enough to appease player interest without being held so often that they lose their luster.

[Batesb]

Altered subject slightly for clarity.

Red text off...time to add my 2 cents!

As one of the original DL runners I experienced all the high and low points of the program from its inception up until PI took over the game (and by extension the DL program.) While I'm not privy to what has happened to the program under PI's reign (although it sounds like I haven't missed much.) I can say that, at least at the outset, I liked where PI was headed with the program.

(Wait, what? Did I just offer something close to a compliment to PI? Why yes...and its not the first time.)

Before there was a DL program their appearances were just about as scarce as Medusan Lords. They were generally only at the major cons and were run as often as you could get one of the AEG staff to run one for you. (in other words if you were patient and waited your turn you were SoL, but if you sniveled and whined alot you'd get your way.)

Enter the Dragonlord program where events would be run in stores (and smaller cons) but, in order to preserve the integrity of the program it was required that all DL events be scheduled 90 days in advance with a lot of promotion leading up to the event. Eventually these restrictions were lessened (and eventually removed entirely), which let to Dragonlords becoming fairly common...even more common than some Overlords.

I think PI wanted to return some integrity and value back to the Dragonlord Program and to the Dragonlord cards themselves. I was excited by the Daemonlord (as I had often pushed for factionalized Dragonlord-esque characters); but was fairly disappointed in the return of Aldrich. (way too many people already have him...its just not special to win an Aldrich.)

I think the Dragonlord Program has stumbled for a lot of the same reasons that alot of things have stumbled. Lack of a decent sized player base, lack of a presence in retail stores, lack of resources to print & distribute new Lords, lack of motivation/trust to appoint someone to spearhead the program.

I haven't seen GD's to do list, but I would assume the Dragonlord program is at least somewhere in the top 5. I hope when the program is retooled it is able to strike a happy medium....with the challenges being held often enough to appease player interest without being held so often that they lose their luster.

Whats up people? So, I have a little insight into this mess. Back near the end when we were without the fearless Leadership of Mike Leader AEG had a stockpile a mile high of Dragonlords. This stock was kept in check by limiting the amount each DL had and maintaining the 30-60-90 days in advance rule for the events.

When Rich Carter took over there were I believe between 2000-5000 Dragonlords out there and much like all promo's they were just dropped into the players hands because they were promo's. Overlords were scarce because stores weren't running events or weren't able to figure out how to. The DL's knew this, why we did prizes of Dragonlords for event and of course charity challenges. There were several good ideas of how to milk the community of Dragonlords, some were actually pretty neat but things kind of spiralle out of control and here we are.

The Dragonlord program was meant to be out in the players face, to promote the game, to have some sort of representation to have larger events. The DL program is the best way to get the game into the players hands to make sure they are supported to represent the company and the game. How many events be it charity or otherwise did players attend? When we started and the game was doing well, 20-30 was normal. Now we are at what 10? The game has changed that is for sure but are as many Dragonlords needed? Would it help the game? I don't know. Deane will yell at me for this but when I left I felt bad because when Leader left, he left Carter, Barry, Deane, Sy and myself incharge to keep the program going. We added a few new fellows to the list and some of us left, I was very confident with Matt and AJ taking over my region and going to keep things going for me. I have heard of lack of community and then nothing going on at all for months. I think a new Dragonlord was being developed and it just seemed to fade into nothingness.

I personally think DL program is essential to the games survival, having structured events by representatives of the company who handle things right definitely looks good. I would hope they would keep this program going and continue to get the support of those having the events and of course the players.

B

[bonefish]

I personally think DL program is essential to the games survival, having structured events by representatives of the company who handle things right definitely looks good. I would hope they would keep this program going and continue to get the support of those having the events and of course the players.

B

The entire Lords program is essential to the game's survival...and the Dragonlords are certainly a large part of this.

The problem with the proliferation of Dragon Lord cards was caused by a few factors:

1. An increase in the frequency of DL events run (more events=more chances to win)
2. A wide variety of decks/cards that could steamroll certain Dragonlords (this is a design issue)
3. Player skill > Dragonlord Runner skill in certain areas
4. Dragonlords shift from a "prestige" award to a marketing tool.

I know no one asked for my advice but...

The Lords program needs to be re-worked from the ground up. AEG era Overlords/Dragonlords should no longer be accepted as challenge tickets.

1. Overlords - Store Level/Game Club level events.
2. Dragonlords - Small conventions and infrequent larger, in store events at stores with a high concentration of Warlord players.
3. Medusan Lords - Large conventions only.

I would put an "expiration date" on Overlords (and Dragon Lords for that matter), allowing them a specific amount of time that they can be used to challenge the next level Lord. Once particular Lords are no longer able to be used as challenge tickets, I would produce a special "Lords Package" and sell it on the online store to raise money for the game and to get the presumable tournament legal cards in the hands of those players who might actually use them in decks.

In short control the market by limiting the amount of and by time limiting the usefulness of the lower level lords, then fund the printing of future Lords buy selling off the excess.

[maverrick77]

IfSo where does the Dragon Lord program stand now? Who is the head of it? Is it still Alexander and if it is why? I've seen him post in our DL boards maybe once or twice in the last year. Do we even know if he still plays? Hell, do we even know who is still an active runner? I know of Rich, Don, Gene, Matt, Tony, and myself (I apologize if I missed one) are still active.

I'm just chiming in real quick to say I'm still active.

[GreenDestiny]

The State of the Dragonlord Program

At this point in time, the Dragonlord program is under review. I know that something is wrong with the program, as does Arne and Alexander. I have only ever experienced the program as a player, never a runner, therefore I am currently conducting a review of how the program currently runs, how it has previously run, and what sorts of ideas people have on how to fix it. I don’t pretend to have the answers at this point in time. Part of the information I need comes from Arne, part of it comes from the current runners, and part of it comes from play groups who need runners.

There are some simple repairs that need to be made, inspired by the Bates era: make it clear who the runners are and how to host an event. There are some not so simple repairs that need to be made: some DLs exist in great quantities and some are quite scarce, some play groups like fierce competition while others are beer and pretzels. There are some repairs that I’m not even aware of that need to be made.

I know that Arne, me, and all of you have the desire to keep the program running, so when the review is complete you will see action in this regard; I know that Arne has laid the groundwork for continuing the program at this point in time. Until I complete the review feel free to share your ideas with me on the program. I promise you that all ideas will be weighed and considered, and I will give credit where it is due.

[Draven]

The State of the Dragonlord Program

At this point in time, the Dragonlord program is under review. I know that something is wrong with the program, as does Arne and Alexander. I have only ever experienced the program as a player, never a runner, therefore I am currently conducting a review of how the program currently runs, how it has previously run, and what sorts of ideas people have on how to fix it. I don’t pretend to have the answers at this point in time. Part of the information I need comes from Arne, part of it comes from the current runners, and part of it comes from play groups who need runners.

There are some simple repairs that need to be made, inspired by the Bates era: make it clear who the runners are and how to host an event. There are some not so simple repairs that need to be made: some DLs exist in great quantities and some are quite scarce, some play groups like fierce competition while others are beer and pretzels. There are some repairs that I’m not even aware of that need to be made.

I know that Arne, me, and all of you have the desire to keep the program running, so when the review is complete you will see action in this regard; I know that Arne has laid the groundwork for continuing the program at this point in time. Until I complete the review feel free to share your ideas with me on the program. I promise you that all ideas will be weighed and considered, and I will give credit where it is due.

A new Dragonlord that people will actually challenge. Or new cards in the environment that can kill help kill them. Outside of highlander decks ive made and purposefully tuned down to be weaker than it could be, no one has challenged an actual dragonlord. And the only reason people challenge Sin is that if he doesnt draw a daemon, their chances of winning increase ten fold. You used to have to think, to come up with new ideas to take down dragonlords. Now its just take your standard tournament deck against sin, hope he doesnt draw a character, and kill him.

Killing a dragonlord used to be a huge step onto killing a medusan lord. it would prepare you in ways, raise your game so that you would be ready to think on the level that medusan challenges are. Now its just another thing to do while waiting for the next set to get printed.

On the overlord level, im still not exactly clear if stores who received them were given a decklist to run (not the actual cards, just a list of what to put together) or if there was even a list decided on after gencon 08 for stores to use. Not only that, but i dont even think stores were sent iron golems to run them. They were always told to wait. /shurg

I love the dragonlord program, and becoming one was the best moment i ever had in this game and its been whats kept me going. I'd love to see it returned to its former glory, to become what it once was. And i'd love to be apart of it. But with the way things have been looking for the game over all in the past few months, i've started selling of my collection, little by little. I'd like to think keeping my challenge cards and decks together would be worth loosing the few hundred dollars i could make by selling off the rares in them, but now im not even sure of that.

So, here's to you GreenDestiny, in the hopes that we dragonlords can all work together with the higher ups, and have our ideas and voices be heard and counted, and actually mean something to not only make this program as great as it once was, but even possibly make it better.

[Rayzer730]

Perhaps in addition to sending out Free OL kits, they could be sold in order to allow non-sanctioned groups to have access. The company could profit, and people would have a second way of gaining access to the basic OLs needed to play. You could even include a dice (Part of the kit to be handed out to a winner) and set of rules on how the OL works....unless a Battlefield is used with them.


Maybe this discussion could continue further in the Advisory Forum in order to allow more detailed discussion under a closer watch?

[DeadlyPenguin9000]

The State of the Dragonlord Program

At this point in time, the Dragonlord program is under review. I know that something is wrong with the program, as does Arne and Alexander. I have only ever experienced the program as a player, never a runner, therefore I am currently conducting a review of how the program currently runs, how it has previously run, and what sorts of ideas people have on how to fix it. I don’t pretend to have the answers at this point in time. Part of the information I need comes from Arne, part of it comes from the current runners, and part of it comes from play groups who need runners.

There are some simple repairs that need to be made, inspired by the Bates era: make it clear who the runners are and how to host an event. There are some not so simple repairs that need to be made: some DLs exist in great quantities and some are quite scarce, some play groups like fierce competition while others are beer and pretzels. There are some repairs that I’m not even aware of that need to be made.

I know that Arne, me, and all of you have the desire to keep the program running, so when the review is complete you will see action in this regard; I know that Arne has laid the groundwork for continuing the program at this point in time. Until I complete the review feel free to share your ideas with me on the program. I promise you that all ideas will be weighed and considered, and I will give credit where it is due.

If you want advice, everything Deane says is golden. I really like the idea of being able to retire OL's, so to speak. Should we really still be signing Qor-Teth's and Siegemasters for 4E challenges? Perhaps limit their signing to Open DL challenges.

And now that we know about the Sutek Surge, will that be an appropriate time for us to be showing off the new OL's that Rich spoke of?

As for reviewing the program, I can do that for you. There is no communication with us from any form of leadership aside from Rich, and he can only do so much. There have been several key threads in the DL boards about important topics, and Alexander couldn't be bothered to even comment. This entire conversation could be on the DL forums, but the thread would die within 10 posts because nobody from the top reads those boards, and that includes the head of the program. And if they do read, they certainly don't give us any feedback which is a big deal.

As for moving this to the advisory forums, I think this is really something players from all over the community should people to speak up about, not just those of us lucky enough to sit at the cool kid's table.

[daurgo2001]

The entire Lords program is essential to the game's survival...and the Dragonlords are certainly a large part of this.

The problem with the proliferation of Dragon Lord cards was caused by a few factors:

1. An increase in the frequency of DL events run (more events=more chances to win)
2. A wide variety of decks/cards that could steamroll certain Dragonlords (this is a design issue)
3. Player skill > Dragonlord Runner skill in certain areas
4. Dragonlords shift from a "prestige" award to a marketing tool.

I know no one asked for my advice but...

The Lords program needs to be re-worked from the ground up. AEG era Overlords/Dragonlords should no longer be accepted as challenge tickets.

1. Overlords - Store Level/Game Club level events.
2. Dragonlords - Small conventions and infrequent larger, in store events at stores with a high concentration of Warlord players.
3. Medusan Lords - Large conventions only.

I can't say enough how right this is.


I'd like to add, that even if a running lives at a certain location, they should NOT be allowed to let players challenge them unless it is an approved event under the above guidelines.

Re: limiting same-arch DL/OL usefulness might be a little too much, but I am all for removing AEG arch DL/OL's from circulation. The the Warlord market is far too inflated with AEG stuff.

- David

[AshGaidin]

...I have yet to see what this "market saturation" has done to ruin the program. While it may have de-valued the cash value of the cards, the main value I always saw was the chance to challenge something better. Since Gencon didn't have a line out the door to challenge it's Medusan Lords or Dragon Lords, I don't see there being too many lords as a problem. I really disagree with removing the challenge value of the previous ones. If for some reason you did decide to do this, give people a full years notice to get the value out of the ones they still do have. I also disagree with putting a time limit on the new ones and then "selling" them once they had no challenge value. It takes away the large incentive to buy them.

[AragornRoR]

...I have yet to see what this "market saturation" has done to ruin the program. While it may have de-valued the cash value of the cards, the main value I always saw was the chance to challenge something better. Since Gencon didn't have a line out the door to challenge it's Medusan Lords or Dragon Lords, I don't see there being too many lords as a problem. I really disagree with removing the challenge value of the previous ones. If for some reason you did decide to do this, give people a full years notice to get the value out of the ones they still do have. I also disagree with putting a time limit on the new ones and then "selling" them once they had no challenge value. It takes away the large incentive to buy them.

[bonefish]

...I have yet to see what this "market saturation" has done to ruin the program. While it may have de-valued the cash value of the cards, the main value I always saw was the chance to challenge something better.

It devalues the entire program from that point up...not just monetarily. With a saturation of Dragonlords, you also have an increase in the number of Medusan Lord challenges. When you increase the number of Medusan Lord Challenges you also increase the likelihood that they will fall prematurely; which in turn produces more Medusan Lords which in turn makes them less special. (Granted they are still pretty damn special...but winning a Gixu doesn't hold the same level of prestige as winning Nassiril Hate, Lady Bhaine or Eiael Darkfeather did.)

I really disagree with removing the challenge value of the previous ones. If for some reason you did decide to do this, give people a full years notice to get the value out of the ones they still do have.

If this were adopted (which it probably won't be...fear of change is a huge issue in this community) I would like to see the "expiration date" set at release.

I also disagree with putting a time limit on the new ones and then "selling" them once they had no challenge value. It takes away the large incentive to buy them.

Well assuming they continue with the current "Overlords are also Warlords" model they could feasibly used as Warlords so that people can *gasp* use them to build decks and play with them. There are also collectors who may want them for their personal collection. Plus it would be a money maker for PI...which I think we can all admit would be good for the future of the game.